Tim - I really don't care to hear about hairless apes. I live with several as it is. Can we contain the discussions to personal meetings?
Bryce - If an infinite number of hairless alien apes typed on an infinite number of typewriters for an infinite amount of time, would they eventually come up with Hamlet? Yes, we are primates. That is a fact. Most of what we do, most of our behavior, is just a very complex and highly developed form of chimpanzee behavior. Calling humans "chimps" is to necessarily an insult. Chimps are pretty intelligent animals...offspring...social structure. And we, being primates, have inherited all this as well. However, we... inherited some "evolutionary baggage" that... may, if not properly controlled, prove self destructive.......... Now knowing that we have such high potential, and to see us often fall so short... makes people like me very depressed....... bunchy frikken hairless apes." This is actually an important observation...
Outsider - When I stated that I was offended at the remark that humans are "hairless monkeys," I was serious. I think people who make these remarks take Douglas Adams' Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy a little too seriously as the character Arthur Dent is constantly referred to by other celestial intelligences as "monkey boy." I hate to burst your bubble, but there is no Zaphod Beeblebrox and all current facts seem to point to us being the only (hence the most intelligent) form of life in the universe.
Warren - You're not bursting my bubble; I am quite aware that there is no conclusive evidence for intelligent life anyplace else but here. I'm simply trying to be realistic about my evolutionary origins. To state that humans are innately superior to any species is to imply what various religious bodies have asserted for millennia; i.e., that humans are somehow "special" or "superior." Bosh and flapdoodle.
Outsider - You stated that we are all hairless chimps with. dexterity...... expansion of the temporal lobes. This is one of those weak arguments that I typically hear from people who are of the computer programmer `genre.' For some reason the majority of this group is proud of its cynical and downcast look on life.
Warren - I was unaware that a firm grounding in biological realism constituted a "weak argument." It seems to me that a logical argument grounded in reality is anything but weak...
Outsider - I wonder if you really understand the implication that these words which you say convey. you are reducing the human race to the same animal level as the examples you use. As a member of the human race, I am offended.
Warren -I most certainly understand my words and their implications. I am not reducing the human race... I am instead celebrating the continuity of life from the first acellular protoplasmic goo to the current level it's reached today.
Outsider - Then there is the entire aspect of human nature dealing with justice and morality. Of course some people say many humans don't have morals, only a warped sense of justice. If this is true then those people are that much more like apes and I pity them.
Warren - Any morals we have developed have evolved over the millennia with us as we learned to stop walking on our knuckles.
Outsider - Someone once said, "Ignorance is bliss." The argument that you make is one of those that is made by people who have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. It's easy to say, "Hey, we're hairless apes." Our genealogical ties may be directly linked to these animals millions of years in the past, but a million years is a long time and the fact remains that in realistic terms we are not hairless apes.
Warren - You're correct, of course. My primary plank is the genetic one. We are Warren - It is very hard to say "We're hairless apes." To say this means that we look at the faces in the cages which peer out at us, and we recognize a kinship there....... It's much easier to say, "We're radically different from anything else on this planet," because that allows us to continue our unchecked slaughter and destruction, the very things which threaten our health and possibility of civilization - hence our survival.
Outsider - I think it's easy to deal with the facts as you have laid them out. I mean, what responsibilities do chimps have to one another than scratching and picking? The animal world is a simpleone with easy rules to follow (e.g. - there is very little intelligence required).
Warren - Apparently you've never tried to fish termites. Just how much anthropology have you studied, anyway?
Outsider - In the mean time - if it itches, scratch it. Don't worry. If Bobo at the zoo got a haircut he wouldn't make much of a human being. Warren - No, that's true. But he might be able to star in a film with a future US President... Besides, chimps are pretty much known to be savage and unpredictable, dangerous creatures. In some ways, well -- all right, the obvious -- in some ways, they're a lot like us, huh?
Ric - OK. We both agree that there is no evidence for intelligent life other than earth. We can't hold a meaningful debate based on hypothesis, so let us restrict the debate to "known lifeforms." You say "bosh and flapdoodle" to the fact that humans are superior to other animals. I don't argue that we have evolved from lesser species, but I do claim that we are unequivocally superior to all other lifeforms on earth.......... You have made the affirmative argument that humans are not all that different from apes, so it is your obligation to specifically supply evidence which upholds your argument....... Suppose that the most worthless, murdering,... human was in the same cage as a strong, beautiful ape straight from the jungle. If for some reason I had to choose which one lived and which one died, I wouldn't blink an eyelid before I sentenced the ape to death.......... I don't find it offensive to be listed as part of the entire biosphere. I DO find it offensive to be incorrectly listed as a part of the biosphere which stuffs its own bodily excretions into its face at the zoo. You know, I haven't ever looked through the bars at the zoo and considered that face a long lost cousin. I think that you will be very hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you on this one. This is one of the reasons that face is on the inside of the cage looking out.
equivalent to primates in many ways in terms of problem solving and general outlook; there is much of the monkey in our politics. The single biggest difference appears to be that we have Big Bombs, which the average bonobo does not. Hence my secondary plank is behavioral.
Ric - Yes, morals have developed over the millennia with us as we learned to stop walking on our knuckles. That does not mean that a god must define them. You prove this yourself. If you are correct in your belief that there is not a god, and you still consider yourself a "good" person, then God must not define morality. So, given the facts as you describe them, nothing but human society can be responsible for the development of morality. This is exactly the reason why humans are superior to apes. Unless of course you do not consider a set of morals as a superior attribute. In this case you should reconsider why you spend so much time waiting in line at the store and obey any sort of laws. Warren - But, then, you have to concede that every law we follow has been developed by a primate-ancestral brain; and therefore, we are still stuck with our primate legacy. Our laws must all be, ultimately, based in monkey politics. The ape wins again, I think. Of course, I could be wrong.
Was it a conspiracy? Will we ever know the truth? The Node crew has established a hotline that you can call if you have information that would shed new light on this SEDS Scandal. Your call will be completely anonymous (unless of course, we recognize your voice). You may also call the hotline to donate money to assist SEDS in all of our efforts, scandalous or not.
SEDS SCANDAL HOTLINE:
1-800-SHH-SEDS
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